[Engine] Changing the starter motor

[jch]

Hi everyone

As I wrote in my introduction post, I recently bought this 2002 1.6 16V van. I'm not sure if it's a M49 or M59 (but I'd be happy to learn how to find out), and it's been running fine since I bought it.

The past days, however, it's been pretty cold (down to -13°C at times), and, possibly unrelated, now the starter motor doesn't engage when I turn the key. It's my first car but I'm determined to figure this out! I've looked at some videos about starter motor problem debugging, but is it possible to find a service manual (or something like it) online to learn how to access the starting motor?

Thanks!

[jj9]

This will get you started (pardon the pun)

https://www.berlingoforum.com/thread-142...nes+manual


PS.
your car is an M49, the M59 is the face lifted version with the different headlights, like the one pictured in my avatar.


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[geoff]

Yes M49 and thanks to Paul for the link

[jch]

Thanks, jj9, for the service manual! Many helpful bits!

The problem I have is congruent with a dead starter motor – turning the key, no cranking, battery newly charged on external charger – but obviously I don't know if the starter actually dead. The car runs fine of you push start it, but that's not really sustainable .

Problem could as well be the cable connecting to it, or something completely different. Is there a protocol for troubleshooting problems like this? I have a well-equipped metal workshop at my disposal, as well as multimeters, chargers, etc. for the electric circuitry.

Thanks in advance!

[jj9]

As geoff mentioned it was Paul who shared the manual with us, so thanks go to him  


When you turn the key do you hear a clicking sound or is there just nothing?



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[jch]

Nothing. I think there's a relay clicking in the fuse box by the battery, though!

[jj9]

Ok,

The starter motor on your engine is at the front down at the right so you should be able to see the cable connections to it, easier said than done I know.

It should look something like this.....


   
Click to open larger.


The Red wire in the picture is the Positive + from the battery connected to the in terminal on the solenoid.

The Black wire (marked with a blue dot) is connected to the out terminal of the solenoid, when the solenoid operates it takes the power into the starter.

The thin wire marked with a Green dot is the trigger wire, this wire feeds 12v to the solenoid when you turn the key so that it operates.

Think of the solenoid as a big relay, when it operates it mechanically joins the Red & Black wires together whilst you have the key turned, when you let go of the key the 12v feed down the thin trigger wire stops and the solenoid disconnects the connection between the Red & the Black wires.

(Apologies if you know all of the above but it may help other readers!)


In your situation I would check all of the connections were in good condition and not showing signs of heavy corrosion, the trigger wire is often prone to a bad connection.

You need to test for voltage at the trigger wire, use a voltage tester between it and any earth (metal)  whilst the key is being turned to the start position, it should show 12 volts.

If the trigger wire checks out ok you can then test the starter motor, to do this you need to momentarily bridge the terminals of the solenoid (Red & Black wires) as shown with a Yellow line in the picture, the starter should operate as soon as these are bridged without turning the key.

If the starter spins and turns the engine when you bridge the solenoid terminals the problem is the solenoid.


Warning. . . 

When bridging the solenoid terminals make sure the car is NOT in gear and is in Neutral otherwise it will lunge forwards.



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[jch]

Thank you, jj9, just the kind of advice I was looking for! I'll have a look over the weekend and report back! Thanks!

[jch]

Just writing a status here. Haven't tried to short-wire the starter motor yet, but I will.

OK, this problem definitely has to do with the temperature. Today, after having push-started my car and driving for about 30 minutes it would start up fine. Tried to start it a few times, then it died again. Did check the voltage on the battery, both with the engine running and without. Slightly low (12.3V) with the engine off, about 13.5V with the engine on. My conclusion here is that the generator – that's what you UK folks call the alternator, right? – is not faulty. At this point I made a few battery tests. First one was to check if the head light brightness would go down trying to start the car. It didn't – not visibly in any case. I also checked the voltage trying to start the car. It would go down to about 11V, so there must be *something* drawing some current.

I push-started it again and drove to my brother's house to try to start the car (Peugeot Partner) off his battery. I disconnected the + side on both cars and connected his battery to my car using starter cables. The plus clamp was hooked up to the (dangling) battery clamp and the minus was connected to the battery terminal. This way I had electrically replaced my battery with his. That didn't work, unfortunately. Oh well, push-started it again and drove for an hour or so, then it could start again.

My own interpretation of this is that my battery is very likely worn and needs to be replaced. But that's not the entire story, since I couldn't start even with my brother's relatively fresh battery. So probably it has to do with the terminals having better contact in warmer temperatures – could this be a sign of corrosion? Living in Scandinavia it'd be sub-optimal to not be able to start the car at subzero degrees

Thanks in advance!

[jj9]

Wow,
you have covered a lot there. 

Yes I agree, your Alternator seems fine.   (Called an Alternator in the UK also)

Connecting the battery's as you did from your brothers car is a good test, it has taken your battery out of the circuit and just used his. A defective battery can pull down a good battery when trying to jump start. 
Not much chance of both batteries being dodgy is there, so I would rule out your battery as a possible cause of the problem.


The headlights not dimming when trying to start, but the voltage dropping to 11v . . . 
If the solenoid is a bit dodgy it could be pulling the voltage but not "throwing" to let the voltage through to the starter motor.

You need to short wire the starter and see what happens, try shorting it a few times and see if the starter spins every time.

You also need to test the trigger wire for 12v every time the key is turned, try this a few times also.

One other test you could try, use a jump lead (starter cable) and connect it from the Negative side of the battery to any metal of the engine, this will provide a clean earth return to test that the engine has a good ground connection. I was mainly on older cars but the earth lead to the engine used to corrode and it would impede starting.

It would be wise to remove all connections and clean them up, applying a smear of grease on reassembly.



Good luck.


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