[Engine] Rough idlle and smoke on cold start on 1.6 hdi Partner 2007

[SergioFR]

Hi evreyone,

I have been scherching on the web about the starting problem, witch many 1.6hdi have, but on the end no one finish the threads saying how it solve. So the symptoms are:

- Rough idle only at cold start (the rev are incontant);
- Smoke with a burning smeel, hard to say if it is oil or fuel;
- the EML 327 diagnostic it says bad EGR and no glow plugs;
- All this symptoms finish when coolant engine temperature reaches to 80ºC (of course the EML327 keeps with the EGR error)
- Oil Leak under the alternator

What have I done:

- clean and test EGR valve and the pipe;
- To test EGR I use a multimeter and measure the 5 five pins and they have following values:
    - nrº 1 5V; - nrº 2 0V; - nrº 3 0,15V(att idle and 13V at high rev.); - nrº4 1,05V; - nrº 5 0V
- Service the engine always before time.
- I change crank and oil pump seal
- I change camshaft seal, and carter seal
- I change two times the injector seals


What has to be done:

- Changing the glow plugs, but i´m avoiding to do that because i have 236000km and the plugs where never changed. So must probably i have to take the engine head to do that, and i´m avoid beacuse i don´t have to refiil with coolant or oil.

So after all this report I would like to know who has this similar problems and how it solve, if possible please.

I know that probably I need new plugs and EGR, but I would like to know if I need more parts or if that "others" are the problem.

The glow plugs I´m trying not to change because I made the mistake of never change them and as you all know the end of the plug is most probably stuck on the engine head....is a lot of job and $$$$$

Veicule: M59 Peugeot Partner 1.6hdi 2007

[polar]

Hi it sounds like you have covered most things but checking the compression and changing the glow plugs. Some injector cleaner will help too and dont forget to do an injector leal off test.

[brodfather11]

Have you tried it with the EGR unplugged ?

[SergioFR]

Have you tried it with the EGR unplugged ?

Yes I tried, I remove the plug in the at cold start and let it unplugged during a couple of minutes with the car stoped only with the engine iddling. It was the same roughf iddleing.

Should i try to let it unplugged wild running with van?

[SergioFR]

Hi it sounds like you have covered most things but checking the compression and changing the glow plugs. Some injector cleaner will help too and dont forget to do an injector leal off test.

When I changed injector seals, injector number 1 and 2 where overhauld, according to them the nozzles where changed.

Injector leak off test and compression test is easy to be done I supose I have to google to if I can do by myself.


Has i wrote, when the van reaches to the 80ºc the rev are ok and no smoke, and I would like to know if it is more than glow plugs. 

The glow plugs are there for so long (never changed) and probably their nozzle increased size and I need to take the head engine to take them. however I don´t have oil leaks and colling so I think is a "crime" to take the head off

[Gravity]

Reading your first post raises questions with me:

1. How did you clean the egr valve?
2. The rough idling on startup - does the engine idle smoothly on EVERY 'warm' startup after the first 'cold' start?
3. The smoke on startup - is it blue, white or black?
4. Does it disappear COMPLETELY after the engine has warmed up?
5. Where is the smoke coming from?
6. Does the engine start easily, even when it idles roughly afterwards - or is it difficult to start when cold?
7. As you are in 'sunny' Portugal, what has been the lowest ambient temperature when this problem occurs?

It's worth remembering that using a bluetooth EML 327 scanner will not always give correct diagnosis. For that you need a Citroen dedicated scan system.

Gravity

[SergioFR]

Reading your first post raises questions with me:

1. How did you clean the egr valve?
2. The rough idling on startup - does the engine idle smoothly on EVERY  'warm' startup after the first 'cold' start?
3. The smoke on startup - is it blue, white or black?
4. Does it disappear COMPLETELY after the engine has warmed up?
5. Where is the smoke coming from?
6. Does the engine start easily, even when it idles roughly afterwards - or is it difficult to start when cold?
7. As you are in 'sunny' Portugal, what has been the lowest ambient temperature when this problem occurs?

It's worth remembering that using a bluetooth EML 327 scanner will not always give correct diagnosis. For that you need a Citroen dedicated scan system.

Gravity

hi gravity,

Ansewring to your questions:

1 - yes I clean 2 times, one at 150.000KM and the the other recently and this last time it was not much durty, and i also clean the pipe that goes from the EGR until the air intake manifold;

2 - yes after the cold start it runs fine when starts to warm, every time. In winter (with 1ºC in the morning I start increase speed to minimize the smoke)

3 - The color of the smoke I´m confused betewen White and Blue, it looks like more white than blue but the smeel is intense and don´t know to say if is oil or fuel.

4 - The roughf idlling is completly finished, such as the smoke, completly when the coolant reatch the 80ºc, and the van runs normal. 

5 - On the back, through the exaust only.

6 - Lety me try to explain, it starts easily but it gives a small unsual vibration at cold, but no when is hot. At hot starts normal. When i turn off it the vibration is a lot.

7 - Before it was only in winter, but is even in summer but on summer the smoke and vibration it´s only during a minute or so. In winter it´s worst at 2ºC or 3ºC or bellow, however even with 15ºC it makes but the roufgh iddling and smoke finish before the coolant reaches the 80ºC.

The EMl 327 is not so accurate as lexia but i didn´t by lexia because i need to have the laptop "dedicated" to lexia device with win 7 etc.

However last year in april i made a diagnostic in a peugeot dealer and the report gives the same errors, EGR and Glow plugs.

So you are thinking the same as I, that the glow plugs will solve the problem? or it could something else?

thank you gravity

and sorry to ansewer late

sergio

[Gravity]

Yes, I was thinking a faulty glowplug, but other things give whitish bad smelling smoke, along with poor cold startup.

For example, sticking rings or glazed bores. Even worn injectors, but these would show smoke not just on startup. An injector leak off test would tell you whether an injector was passing too much fuel.

Sticking rings due to build up of deposits is one common cause, and there are products designed to flush away such deposits - although I have no idea how good they are.

Have you checked the continuity of each glowplug? If one was open circuit it could give smoke and uneven running on startup.

Another remote possibility could even be turbo lag - slow to respond on cold startup. That's unlikely, but just possible.

I would suspect either glow plug faulty or sticking rings. Not much help I'm afraid, but the best I can do. Someone with more experience of the 1.6hdi may give more help.

Gravity

[SergioFR]

Yes, I was thinking a faulty glowplug, but other things give whitish bad smelling smoke, along with poor cold startup.

For example, sticking rings or glazed bores. Even worn injectors, but these would show smoke not just on startup. An injector leak off test would tell you whether an injector was passing too much fuel.

Sticking rings due to build up of deposits is one common cause, and there are products designed to flush away such deposits - although I have no idea how good they are.

Have you checked the continuity of each glowplug? If one was open circuit it could give smoke and uneven running on startup.

Another remote possibility could even be turbo lag - slow to respond on cold startup. That's unlikely, but just possible.

I would suspect either glow plug faulty or sticking rings. Not much help I'm afraid, but the best I can do. Someone with more experience of the 1.6hdi may give more help.

Gravity

Your help and from other users are great, The main purpose to open this post is to understand if it is more than glowplugs.

At this time all glow plugs are defenitly with open circuit, I´m shure because there is no glow plugs that last 236000 km rigth?

However I have to take out engine head to completely remove the plugs due to the nozzle that encreases size because of carbon residues in the cylinder bore. 

In this 2007 1.6hdi version the tolerence betewen glow nozzle and the housing is very low, result the nozzle stays inside engine when trying to remove in a normal way.

Here is a video showing stuck glow plugs on 2007 1.6hdi and why need to remove engine head:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVyfiEe5HZs

Ok when i had bigger problems with related to engine head i will change glow plugs.

by the way i still have to solve oil leak witch appears under the alternater, i don´t know if is in the sttering pipe or from a engine block plug

tkanks for your help

best regards

[saskak]

I am starting to have exactly the same problem. Rough idle until warm (80C) and white-ish smoke on start. I replaced the EGR valve awhile ago (<5,000 miles) and cleaned it inside-out completely. New oil/diesel/air filters. I have not replaced the glowplugs, but might do that soon. When warm, no smoke, no rough idle, smooth.
No errors in Lexia, nothing. It would be great if you manage to find what is causing this.

Cheers,
saskak