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[Brakes] Rear drum brakes - adjuster/routing solved
#1
Hi all

Overhauling drum brakes and I find that I have two different routing on the bottom spring that holds the base of the shoes against the mounting. 

One side the spring is behind the mounting plate and the other it is over it.

I've been a'Googling and can find images for both routing across Peugeot/Citroen.

Anybody have the definitive answer ? (Does it even matter?)

Thanks
                                                                                                                                                     
Our cars - 2008 1.6 HDi 92 Berlingo (His)
             - 2008 1.6 HDi 110 Mini (Hers)
             - 2008 1.4 HDi 70 Pug 207 (Sprogs) RIP 04/19
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#2
If time (and weather) allows, can you post some pictures?
It'd be good to know what's correct as I'm sure it'll be something I need to do at some point.

Not sure if it helps, but page 9-6 of the Haynes manual on here shows the drums.
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#3
That helps a lot - shows the spring fitted BEHIND the plate, once the rain stops I'll be doing that later on then.

Thanks
                                                                                                                                                     
Our cars - 2008 1.6 HDi 92 Berlingo (His)
             - 2008 1.6 HDi 110 Mini (Hers)
             - 2008 1.4 HDi 70 Pug 207 (Sprogs) RIP 04/19
Reply
#4
(09-05-2019, 06:43 AM)GraemeT Wrote:  That helps a lot - shows the spring fitted BEHIND the plate, once the rain stops I'll be doing that later on then.

Thanks

Yes spring behind the plate
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#5
(09-05-2019, 08:10 AM)polar Wrote:  
(09-05-2019, 06:43 AM)GraemeT Wrote:  That helps a lot - shows the spring fitted BEHIND the plate, once the rain stops I'll be doing that later on then.

Thanks

Yes spring behind the plate

Hi - I think I found a photo of yours on the forum that shows this? Funny thing is that the physical setup is the same as the two Pug 1.4 HDi that we have had over the years but things like the hand brake cable routing & lever positioning vary - on the Berlingo they are to the drum side of the shoe on the Pug towards the backing plate. Weird.
                                                                                                                                                     
Our cars - 2008 1.6 HDi 92 Berlingo (His)
             - 2008 1.6 HDi 110 Mini (Hers)
             - 2008 1.4 HDi 70 Pug 207 (Sprogs) RIP 04/19
Reply
#6
OK - now I'm grumpy.

Got both sides cleaned up and new shoes installed. Bled through the new cylinder on the left. Soft pedal with a feeling of ABS pulsing when slowing. Also slight grating from left drum. Pulled it back off and found that the triangular part that 'clicks' against the adjuster was off its mounting, shoes were therefore not adjusted out.

Refitted that, same thing - tinkled off the mounting as soon as brake pedal touched. Pulled other side off to compare - identical went to refit but the bl**dy puppy has stolen the part. OK so lesson learned there. New adjuster on way and I'm in the dog house with the puppy according to t'missus.

Question - anybody had this problem before? As far as I can tell it's all refitted correctly, adjuster is free to move. Only think different is I used a new set of springs - on the right it's all good (shoes adjusted etc etc)
                                                                                                                                                     
Our cars - 2008 1.6 HDi 92 Berlingo (His)
             - 2008 1.6 HDi 110 Mini (Hers)
             - 2008 1.4 HDi 70 Pug 207 (Sprogs) RIP 04/19
Reply
#7
(09-05-2019, 04:11 PM)GraemeT Wrote:  OK - now I'm grumpy.

Got both sides cleaned up and new shoes installed. Bled through the new cylinder on the left. Soft pedal with a feeling of ABS pulsing when slowing. Also slight grating from left drum. Pulled it back off and found that the triangular part that 'clicks' against the adjuster was off its mounting, shoes were therefore not adjusted out.

Refitted that, same thing - tinkled off the mounting as soon as brake pedal touched. Pulled other side off to compare - identical went to refit but the bl**dy puppy has stolen the part. OK so lesson learned there. New adjuster on way and I'm in the dog house with the puppy according to t'missus.

Question - anybody had this problem before? As far as I can tell it's all refitted correctly, adjuster is free to move. Only think different is I used a new set of springs - on the right it's all good (shoes adjusted etc etc)

Graeme dont take this the wrong way but if you have messed up thus far the least i would do is have your work checked over by a decent mechanic. To be honest the job you are doing can be done including changing the wheel cylinders (which i would always advise when replacing the shoes) for about £110 -£180 by a decent independent mechanic. 

Like i say im not criticising but you are doing brakes and they are very important.

Hope all turns out well mate
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#8
(09-05-2019, 04:11 PM)GraemeT Wrote:  Question - anybody had this problem before? As far as I can tell it's all refitted correctly, adjuster is free to move. Only think different is I used a new set of springs - on the right it's all good (shoes adjusted etc etc)

It's been a while since I looked at drum brakes so this is from memory & you may well have already done this anyway..

I was thinking that maybe the adjuster moves too far when you apply the brakes. Did you manually take up the slack on the shoes so that they just rub against the drum? In the olden days, there was a little window that you could poke a screwdriver through to do this but progress has probably deleted that option.
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#9
(10-05-2019, 06:39 AM)cancunia Wrote:  
(09-05-2019, 04:11 PM)GraemeT Wrote:  Question - anybody had this problem before? As far as I can tell it's all refitted correctly, adjuster is free to move. Only think different is I used a new set of springs - on the right it's all good (shoes adjusted etc etc)

It's been a while since I looked at drum brakes so this is from memory & you may well have already done this anyway..

I was thinking that maybe the adjuster moves too far when you apply the brakes. Did you manually take up the slack on the shoes so that they just rub against the drum? In the olden days, there was a little window that you could poke a screwdriver through to do this but progress has probably deleted that option.

Hi - you can manually adjust it with the drums off until they are a snug fit over the shoes then pump it up from there on the pedal. 

Looking at it last night after grumpiness wore off I can now see that the actual leading shoe is the problem - there's a pin through the shoe that this part hinges on - that part should extend evenly on both sides as the leading shoes are not handed. On my right shoe it is, on the left it is not even - more of it is to the inside hence the hinge is too short and the part can fall off.

The answer is to swap the leading shoes around or get another set from the supplier or tap the pin through some more - rather than muck about with the pin I'll swap the shoes over, bit of a pain - thank you Mr Mintex.
                                                                                                                                                     
Our cars - 2008 1.6 HDi 92 Berlingo (His)
             - 2008 1.6 HDi 110 Mini (Hers)
             - 2008 1.4 HDi 70 Pug 207 (Sprogs) RIP 04/19
Reply
#10
Hi
After a lot of head scratching, Googling and puzzling - here's the answer to the ratchet & pawl problem.

The drum brakes have a self adjuster that uses a pawl hinged on a split pin, the pawl is held downwards by a spring. If you install new shoes and/or new adjusters then you're going to wind the adjuster right in before reassembly. On ours this meant that the pawl was not fully engaged across the ratchet. We had maybe a 66% coverage (see below).

   

If you set it up like this then once you have the drum back on and you press the brake pedal down you'll hear the ratchet clicking inside the drum as if it is taking up the slack correctly. What actually happens is that the spring pulls the pawl down below where it is meant to be and it lies at a downward angle against the ratchet. (sorry but these images are upside down so down is up)

   

Subsequent use of the pedal or hand brake allows the spring to pull the pawl off the hinge (i.e. tinkle, tinkle)

Solution is just to wind out the adjuster sufficiently that the whole of the width of the ratchet is covered. Picture below is an approximation of what we did - compared to picture #1 there's not a great deal of difference just a great deal of frustration.

   

Once that's done then the shoes self adjust nicely and, after 17 miles back into town feathering the brakes we have a new MoT.

I can't claim the kudos for spotting this, my wife did. Undecided
                                                                                                                                                     
Our cars - 2008 1.6 HDi 92 Berlingo (His)
             - 2008 1.6 HDi 110 Mini (Hers)
             - 2008 1.4 HDi 70 Pug 207 (Sprogs) RIP 04/19
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