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[Engine] Starter relay built in to fuse box
#11
Good morning!
My van is a 59 plate 1.6 diesel, sorry, I realise now I didn’t answer that question when you asked earlier ?
I did do a bit more poking and prodding last night, and none of the fuses in the top tier nor the master fuses beneath appear to be damaged, the little wire inside of each was intact in all of them. I don’t have a multimeter, but I could borrow one to test them all, if a visual inspection isn’t conclusive enough
Weirdly though, there are still no relays in the bottom tier, just the fuses..?
My friend plugged a diagnostic machine in, and it came up with:
P87; Fuel rail / system pressure too low
P93; Fuel system leak
P1351; Manufacturer control (which I think is the glow plugs…?)
But would any of those relate to it not starting? I know my air filter box is loose, and an injector seal is on its way out too apparently, but neither of those things have stopped it starting before; she used to start on the first turn every time.
If it were in fact the BSI that’s knackered, would I be right in thinking that it would be prohibitively expensive to repair / replace?
Thank you for all your time and help
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#12
If the BSI is damaged, then yeah you're in a world of hurt to replace it. Can't use a second hand unit straight off, as that would need "virginised" or reset by a specialist, then it has to be recoded to your key transponders and programmed with your VIN and vehicle features. On top of that, the model of BSI whether its L, M or H function, needs to match exactly with what you have now.

Reversing the leads on a jump start would normally be a bad thing and could lead to a lot of the electronics being damaged. I think you're in the boat where you need a proper indy PSA garage with an auto spark who knows what they are doing, to look over this.

I'll do some more digging on the starter relay, if as you say there is nothign in the fuse box, then we have a problem as ServiceBox (official Citroen system) says it is in there. Is your vehicle an M59 (Berlingo First Van) or is it a B9? This matters, as the electronics and wiring diagrams are different. This is what I was digging at with the year and engine, but the 59 plate could be one of the crossover "Berlingo First" M59s OR a B9.
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#13
Ah right, that does sound pretty horrendous…
I was wondering whether I might need to bite the bullet and accept that I need a pro to look at it
I’ll be honest I’m not 100% I understand the difference between the two models, but mine has the slightly newer / facelift front end, with the vertical handle in the rear door, so I think it might be one of the crossovers…?
I’m not very tech savvy so I’m struggling to find a way to show you photos of the fuse board and my van so you might find it easier
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#14
Ok, so I feel pretty sure you have an M59 crossover (called the Berlingo-First) van, does it look this: (M59)

   

Or like this: (B9)

   

Now, having done a LOT more digging on ServiceBox, if yours is the M59 with the DV6 1.6 HDi engine, then it may not have a starter relay at all. The starter circuit does not even have a fused output, but it does pass through the engine bay fuse box. Things may not be as bad as it looks...

Basically the circuit starts at the ignition key terminal 3 (start) on a RED wire and goes through the PSF1 (engine bay fuse box) in on plug [16V GR] Pin 1 & out on plug [2V NR] Pin 1 using wire 100 (solenoid control) all the way, and on to the starter solenoid directly. Find those plugs on your engine bay fuse box as per my diagrams, check [16V GR] pin 1 for 12v with the key in cranking position (needs a bulb or a meter and two folk probably) and if that lights up then check plug [2V NR] pin 1 for 12v under the same condition, if both of these light up when the key is in the crank position, next check the wire from [2V NR] pin 1, to the starter solenoid terminal. If that wire is ok and 12v is there at the starter end in the crank position, then the solenoid iisgoosed. That's a kind of easy fix (scrappie / replacement starter)

It does look like provision was made for an electronic controller in the fusebox and relay R8 is shown but this may be a model thing, where higher spec models get a relay and others (like a van) don't. You could jumper wire 100 from the harness coming out of the ignition barrel on pin 3 (red) all the way to the starter terminal - either as a jerry-rig repair or as a test for use until a proper repair could be carried out. A test meter goes a long way for this stuff, and needn't be an expensive one, from Screwfix they are less than £25.

I've attached the proper diagrams below:

Starting System:


.pdf   M59 DV6 Starting System.pdf (Size: 606.31 KB / Downloads: 16)

PSF1 Plug Layout:


.pdf   M59 PSF1.pdf (Size: 262.49 KB / Downloads: 12)
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Previous:
2017 B9 1.6 BlueHDi Van
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[-] The following 1 user says Thank You to Sol for this post:
  • Addo_18
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#15
Wow, before anything else, I must say: thank you so much for the amount of effort and time you’ve put into researching this for me, I really appreciate it

The top one looks like mine, so it does look like she’s a First

Until I get my own, my friend is lending me his meter, so I’ll do my best to follow the course of action you’ve outlined above to test each stage; I’m a landscaper by trade so this is all a little bit out of my comfort zone, but all this information is absolutely brilliant (and I fortunately have some friends who are more techy than me) so thank you very much for your help

I’ll try to do as you’ve suggested, and let you know how I get on
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#16
Excellent, keep us posted. Quite a few of us have access to Citroen software & documentation so its not a problem, we're all here to help where we can.

Stick the meter on DC Volts, put the black lead to the battery earth and use the red one to test each point where you can. Logically follow the circuit, you can pull the first plug mentioned and carefully touch the red probe to pin one while a friend turns the key to the crank position and holds it there, then plug that back in, pull the second plug mentioned and this time, you want the probe in the terminal for pin 1, on the fuse box where the plug goes in, try not to spread the pin with the probe, be gentle but make sure your getting a connection or use a bit of wire to extend the pin socket out and test on that.

The final part of that circuit is the smaller wire on the starter, ignoring the huge one.
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Current:
Not a Citroen!
______________________
Previous:
2017 B9 1.6 BlueHDi Van
2012 B9 1.6 HDi Van
2008 M59 1.6 HDi Van
2003 M59 1.9D Van
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#17
Good morning! How are we all??
I am very happy to report that after much rooting and rummaging (and leaning VERY heavily on all of the advice offered on here) we managed to ascertain it was in fact the starter that was playing up, so we had that confirmed by a friend of a friend who is a mechanic, and an all round nice guy, who then replaced the starter for me on Sunday.
And she lives! Vera rides again ?
She’s going through her MOT today (fingers crossed!??) so once that’s taken care of, hopefully that’ll be the end of my troubles for the foreseeable future
Many thanks once again for all your help
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#18
Good news, glad we could help!
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Current:
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Previous:
2017 B9 1.6 BlueHDi Van
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#19
(31-08-2022, 11:41 AM)Zion Wrote:  Quick update, R8 is indeed shown as being inside PSF1, the engine bay fusebox. There is a fuse F8 which is "Starter Relay" on the same fusebox. This powers the circuit going to the starter relay R8 contacts, and from there on to the starter solenoid terminal.
Hi,
kind of necro resurrect for almost one year old thread, but you wouldn't happen to know which is the connector and wire in the PSF1 that goes from R8 to starter solenoid? Wiring diagram would of course be much appreciated. I disconnected the plug at starter end and checked connectivity for all large and semilarge pins in connectors to no avail. Even did it both ways since I realised there could be diode and my leads were the wrong way first time.
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#20
If you read post #14...

https://www.berlingoforum.com/thread-198...#pid145813

Wait, do you have a B9? Much better to start a thread of your own in the correct section if you do, as it gets confusing for others if we mix models and diagrams on one thread.
______________________
Current:
Not a Citroen!
______________________
Previous:
2017 B9 1.6 BlueHDi Van
2012 B9 1.6 HDi Van
2008 M59 1.6 HDi Van
2003 M59 1.9D Van
[-] The following 1 user says Thank You to Sol for this post:
  • jthyttin
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