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DW10 (2.0 HDI RHY) No hot start
#1
Hello gentlemen!

Long time lurker, but no poster until now out of pure desperation.

Picked up the old steed (M59 2.0 HDI Van) a couple of years ago. It was cheap as back doors had been broken into, steering rack unions were cross threaded and were leaking quicker than you could top up the reservoir, rad was split and once replacing rad I'd found out headgasket was blown as well...
Anyway I sorted the headgasket, did a timing belt same time, removed the power steering pump and lines, took rack off and packed it full of grease and removed the hydraulic ram, replaced rad, rad fans, fitted an intercooler, some hard pipes and got an unlocked remapped ECU (SID 801A) from Steve @ HDI Tuning. So far so good, van would start and go quite well, no further issues with water etc. however ever since I've got it I've had a recurring "hot" starting issue.

First start of the day it's always good, within 2 turns of the starter motor I'm met with the familiar calming tractor noise. I've driven it up and down the country for work and it has not once cut out or missed a beat, juddered or otherwise behaved incorrectly. Once started however, the moment you shut it off - whether it's 35 seconds after just moving it up the drive or after a 4 hour drive no amount of cranking seems to get it started right away. It will sometimes start after 2 turns and sometimes won't after a minute on the starter. Having had Lexia on it I can report the following:
- Cranking pressure going up to 400 bar then regulator kicking in and sending it back to 290-300 so that's good. (Rebuilt injectors, rebuilt pump)
- Cranking RPM of 250-290 RPM depending on battery charge (2.2 starter, old one packed in early on)
- Fuel, air and coolant temps on live values seem very reasonable
-- Cam crank sync when it starts - yes and no when it doesn't, but seems totally random when it does it  Idea
-- Stores code P0336 with varying RPM (Pics attached)

I've read countless threads on here and otherwise over the last year and a half and this is what I've done so far: 
- Remove entire engine wiring loom, trace cables to ECU plugs, discovered a few previous bodges, repaired, re-wrapped loom and refitted. 
- Replace and reset cam position sensor, both new and old behave the same
- Replace crank position sensor - both new and old behave the same 396 and 397 ohm respectively resistance
- With ignition on at Crank sensor plug I get 2.37 volts on both pins ( Is this correct? I assumed its just sense but I may be wrong)
- Check continuity of wiring to crank position sensor from ECU plug - all good and 7 ohm resistance
- Check earth straps from battery to chassis and gearbox (0-1ohm), cleaned both anyway
- Check earths out of loom under passenger headlight, (0-1 ohm), cleaned all anyway
- Absolutely no EGR system (Cooler, bypassed at exhaust manifold with plate and welded up intake manifold side)
- Removed fuse box by battery, inspected, checked all fuses - no visible damage, no water ingress, all fuses OK
- Removed BSI under diagnostic plug by steering wheel - no visible damage, burns, water ingress, all fuses OK

Absolutely stumped so far so have a few questions: 

If I'd bought the wrong crank position sensor ( Bosch type ) would the engine ever start and run?
Whenever a code such as that is stored on your ECU, when reading with Lexia do you also get such funky values? (Values like this only when reading the code, at live values screen everything seems to check out)
Should I be getting 2.37 volts at both pins on crank position sensor?
What part does the BSI play in starting the engine? Sometimes it seems like I get two clicks from a relay within the BSI when turning key through ignition to start and it seems to not start then but I may just be confused, seems like it's only a single click when it works? (Potentially, not sure if I'm going mad at this point  Huh )

Have dealt with this for quite a while but it's honestly getting tiring - not just being unable to use it like a normal vehicle, but also not being able to solve the mystery  Big Grin

Hoping you fine gentlemen have some ideas I may have missed!
Thanks for reading and best regards, 
Tod


Attached Files Thumbnail(s)
               
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#2
Crikey - I don't think I've seen such an effort to fix a problem. I'm a Dinosaur when it comes to all of the gadgetry, but near the end you mentioned the single/double click when you turn the key. Berlingos can wear out their ignition switches and could it actually be such a simple cause Confused ?
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#3
(30-08-2022, 02:45 PM)oilyrag Wrote:  Crikey - I don't think I've seen such an effort to fix a problem. I'm a Dinosaur when it comes to all of the gadgetry, but near the end you mentioned the single/double click when you turn the key. Berlingos can wear out their ignition switches and could it actually be such a simple cause Confused ?

That's a great point, I forgot to say when I replaced the back doors with slightly straighter ones I did a whole lockset so the keys match! Felt very 1970s with 4 different keys  Big Grin

Any way to bypass ignition switch without causing permanent damage to test? Immo is off on ECU so I assume it wont matter.
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#4
I'll post an ignition diagram (unless someone else does) once I get to work. You've been thorough, as good as I've seen..

One or two comments, 8160 RPM, 264% & 5% from throttle position sensors, unknown engine status, -50° coolant temps, these all point in my mind, to an ECU corruption or misbehaving. Have you ever put this to Steve? I think if it was me, I'd have blamed that ECU from the start. Those values are off the chart crazy. Not sure why.

The role the BSI has, is that it contains the immobiliser. When Steve says "immo removed", it's not really, he just deletes a line of code in the engine ECU.

Basically the BSI reads and approves the key transponder via the comm board under the steering column. (Read via a loop of wire round the ignition barrel which powers the transponder chip.)

Next, the engine ECU asks for "start-authorisation" - if happy, the BSI responds with "OK". Steve just deletes the line of code that was prompting the ECU to ask for start-authorisation. The BSI is unchanged. His "unlocked" ECUs just don't ask any more.

My thoughts are that the ECU you have is a bit corrupted and after first start, goes nuts on being used again. No idea why but I'd pose the question to Steve. Also, try your original unmapped ECU back in place and see if the weird hot-start issue disappears...just thinking out loud....
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#5
(31-08-2022, 05:25 AM)Zion Wrote:  I'll post an ignition diagram (unless someone else does) once I get to work. You've been thorough, as good as I've seen..

One or two comments, 8160 RPM, 264% & 5% from throttle position sensors, unknown engine status, -50° coolant temps, these all point in my mind, to an ECU corruption or misbehaving. Have you ever put this to Steve? I think if it was me, I'd have blamed that ECU from the start. Those values are off the chart crazy. Not sure why.

The role the BSI has, is that it contains the immobiliser. When Steve says "immo removed", it's not really, he just deletes a line of code in the engine ECU.

Basically the BSI reads and approves the key transponder via the comm board under the steering column. (Read via a loop of wire round the ignition barrel which powers the transponder chip.)  

Next, the engine ECU asks for "start-authorisation" - if happy, the BSI responds with "OK". Steve just deletes the line of code that was prompting the ECU to ask for start-authorisation. The BSI is unchanged. His "unlocked" ECUs just don't ask any more.

My thoughts are that the ECU you have is a bit corrupted and after first start, goes nuts on being used again. No idea why but I'd pose the question to Steve. Also, try your original unmapped ECU back in place and see if the weird hot-start issue disappears...just thinking out loud....


I mean it did cross my mind but every time Steve's done something for me it's been legit, on time and perfect so far so I kinda didn't want to think that way. When I spoke to him he mentioned crank pos sensor and the wiring which I've already checked, I assume he tests ECUs but then again he no longer has his old Berlingo 2.0 so he wouldn't be able to test fully I guess! 

Onto the original ECU - Mrs. had my car keys (daily and work van, house on same ring..) and they disappeared on a night out in York  Dodgy
I never got the customers code keycard and I don't know how to get the code from the BSI in order to code new keys. Can't be done via Lexia I don't think, must be an eeprom level read from what I've read. May be worth swapping original ECU in and speaking to a local auto locksmith about getting that code off the BSI unless you guys know a way I could DIY it? 

Thanks for both replies so far, it's good to look at things from a new angle sometimes!
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#6
I am a big fan of Steve but things do go wrong with anything. You're correct, the PIN can't be gotten from Diagbox, it needs an EPROM read from the BSI.

But, Citroen will supply it with proof of identity, address and V5 in your name - I don't even think it costs much to get it. £45?

That would be worth a try. Or see if Steve would loan you an exchange ECU on the basis that it would prove if this one has always been a bit screwy.

The ECU's he codes and sells are used, pulled from scrap vehicles. It could be faulty before being unlocked and he may never have had the conditions right to see that.
______________________
Current:
2017 B9 1.6 BlueHDi Van
______________________
Previous:
2012 B9 1.6 HDi Van
2008 M59 1.6 HDi Van
2003 M59 1.9D Van
Reply
#7
Here's a starter circuit diagram attached, hope it does what you need.


Attached Files
.pdf   Berlingo - Partner 2.0HDI Starter Circuit.pdf (Size: 870.88 KB / Downloads: 2)
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#8
It gets more complicated.. as always.
I don't believe this is the original BSI and ECU for the van anyway as it was first registered as a 1.6 75 and also has a hydro clutch. Its on an 07 plate, not sure when the last 2.0s were made? Would Citroen be able to give me the code if I gave them the VIN from BSI?
It's definitely worth a question and I'll call my local dealers to find out thank you for the insight!

Cancunia, thank you very much for the diagram, I shall attempt to decode it when I get back from work and see what could potentially be amiss!

You guys are awesome, thanks!
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#9
From the BSI VIN, if it's not your original VIN then it's possible, usually they want to see a V5 and ID so would give the pin code from the original VIN.

Is it definitely different if you look in Diagbox?
______________________
Current:
2017 B9 1.6 BlueHDi Van
______________________
Previous:
2012 B9 1.6 HDi Van
2008 M59 1.6 HDi Van
2003 M59 1.9D Van
Reply
#10
(31-08-2022, 08:03 AM)Zion Wrote:  From the BSI VIN, if it's not your original VIN then it's possible, usually they want to see a V5 and ID so would give the pin code from the original VIN.

Is it definitely different if you look in Diagbox?

Diagbox gave me vin for a blue van if decoder is correct - VF7GJRHYK93094203. Mine is white and definitely the original single stage white too.
Not sure if that's come from ECU or BSI though. I will reconnect the original ECU tonight and have a check if it changes anything.

I just had a thought - if engine ECU is locked and doesn't recognise key would it still do Cam/Crank sync yes message at the top of live values read? Fairly sure it didn't last time I tried swapping the ECUs over after a start. (Along with battery off after 2 mins, full BSI reset procedure after reconnection, had a few French cars before this)
Also with ECU locked it doesn't let me erase old fault codes etc.
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