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Heater Matrix
#1
Hi All,

I have a Berlingo, 2008, M59 Van with a 1.6 HDI.

Been an interesting old day.

Set off home from the coast and she wouldn't start, after a few attempts she fired up but died, this went on but managed to get her going and I drove round the caravan park, once the engine started to warm up the engine ran pretty smooth, decided to drive home rather than get recovery, might not have been one of my best choices but we got home no drama.

The engine management light came on and sure enough the fault codes P1369, P1368 and P1351 came up on the fault reader, after doing some research and I pretty much guessed anyway the glow plugs are faulty.

So I have been putting a jobs list together and I have run into a road block.

Let me explain a bit first. I have been loosing coolant but I have run the engine and checked and it is not coming from the engine bay, by sheer coincidence I did a 120 mile run with no heater on and I didn't loose a drop, this leads me to believe it could be the heater matrix core thats leaking.

I have looked at replacements and it seems for the 2008 1.6 hdi you can get two different heater matrix core replacements. My question for this one is does any one know which one I need for the M59 model, its the mark 1 with the bigger lights.

Whilst I am changing the glow plugs, I am going to do the fuel filter and injectors, also give it a full service (oil, filter, air filter), i'm also going to get a ply kit for the back as the old plastic panel's are looking tired, the clock needs replacing, but rather than put a replacement screen in, I might get creative and use the space for something else, maybe a phone holder not sure.

Once done she will be a cracking little van, she's run pretty much without a fault for 2 years getting me all over the country. Looking forward to getting the van a bit of tlc.
Citroen Berlingo van, 2008, M59, 1.6 hdi 
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#2
The matrix is in permanent circulation with the cooling system and not dependent on the position of the heater controls - it is always hot when the engine is up to temp. If it was leaking then you'd likely smell the 'spicy' antifreeze and have a wet patch on the floor, driver's side, along with a steamed up windscreen.
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#3
(02-10-2022, 07:51 PM)oilyrag Wrote:  The matrix is in permanent circulation with the cooling system and not dependent on the position of the heater controls - it is always hot when the engine is up to temp. If it was leaking then you'd likely smell the 'spicy' antifreeze and have a wet patch on the floor, driver's side, along with a steamed up windscreen.

Cheers for the reply, the windscreen steamed up but nothing major I just put it down to time of year, there is a slight smell in the cab of antifreeze, to be sure I'll check the floor. I don't suppose there is pipework running coolant behind the dash connected and sealed with orings. I know the ones behind the bulkhead are dry.

Failing that thought its back to the drawing board Smile

Cheers

John.
Citroen Berlingo van, 2008, M59, 1.6 hdi 
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#4
If there is no obvious leak from the heater area - more likely to leak when hot, as water pressure increases. The water loss - maybe go for something as simple as replacing the pressure cap - if it is lifting 'early' and the system not pressurising correctly it could lead to water loss, and also the smell of antifeeze.
I think that the hose connector design at the bulkhead dictates the type of heater matrix - making the possible replacements non-interchangeable.
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#5
The first sign I had that the matrix was leaking on my 2001 van was when I turned up the heater one cold morning to de-mist the windscreen, and instead of clearing it got worse. Shortly after that I noticed a mist coming out of the heater vents.  I stopped using the heater after that but, as oilyrag said, the leaking continues whenever the engine is used and gets hot.  Fluid in the footwell probably won't be visible due to carpet and mats etc, but if  you lift up any loose rubber mats and press a dry cloth into the carpet, moisture should be revealed (on my M49 it tends to pool first just to the right of the factory rubber mat insert).  I suspect that fluid had been accumulating there for a while before I noticed the mist coming out of the vents.
Work van:     2020 1.5 BlueHDi 100 Enterprise Berlingo
Spare van:    2001 1.9 600d Berlingo
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#6
The HDi being a Direct Injection engine, does not need glow plugs to start at all, unless the outside temperature is VERY low, so the issue of non-start may be something else (EGR stuck open etc.)

Faulty glow plugs will never stop it starting at this time of year. More likely stuck EGR or a fuel pressure issue.
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#7
(03-10-2022, 10:48 AM)Zion Wrote:  The HDi being a Direct Injection engine, does not need glow plugs to start at all, unless the outside temperature is VERY low, so the issue of non-start may be something else (EGR stuck open etc.)

Faulty glow plugs will never stop it starting at this time of year. More likely stuck EGR or a fuel pressure issue.

Cheers for that dude, I will get have look, seemed strange that when the engine was cold, it wouldn't start and I could hardly keep it running, once it warmed up it ran fine, thats what made me think glow plugs.

The codes that come up P1351, Pre Heat Relay Circuit Coherence, P1368, Control of injector for cylinder 3, voltage too low, P1369 same as before but for cylinder 4.

I did some research on these and it all came back to the glow plugs, but on reflection on what you said, to clean the EGR isn't a massive job, if that fixes the problem happy days, failing that i'll get a fuel pressure test kit ordered, be cheaper than the garage Smile

Thanks again

John
Citroen Berlingo van, 2008, M59, 1.6 hdi 
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#8
(03-10-2022, 07:23 AM)oilyrag Wrote:  If there is no obvious leak from the heater area - more likely to leak when hot, as water pressure increases. The water loss - maybe go for something as simple as replacing the pressure cap - if it is lifting 'early' and the system not pressurising correctly it could lead to water loss, and also the smell of antifeeze.
I think that the hose connector design at the bulkhead dictates the type of heater matrix - making the possible replacements non-interchangeable.

Thanks for the reply pal, I don't know if this confirms anything but I do notice, the engine temp gauge goes right up to the centre mark but then drops under it and settles, what you suggest is by far the cheapest option first so I will get a new cap ordered, you never know I might just get lucky Smile
Citroen Berlingo van, 2008, M59, 1.6 hdi 
Reply
#9
(03-10-2022, 10:48 AM)Zion Wrote:  The HDi being a Direct Injection engine, does not need glow plugs to start at all, unless the outside temperature is VERY low, so the issue of non-start may be something else (EGR stuck open etc.)

Faulty glow plugs will never stop it starting at this time of year. More likely stuck EGR or a fuel pressure issue.

Ive just found your 12 page thread on lumpy start up, brilliant thread and interesting read.
Citroen Berlingo van, 2008, M59, 1.6 hdi 
[-] The following 1 user says Thank You to jboy012000 for this post:
  • Sol
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#10
(03-10-2022, 04:55 PM)jboy012000 Wrote:  
(03-10-2022, 07:23 AM)oilyrag Wrote:  If there is no obvious leak from the heater area - more likely to leak when hot, as water pressure increases. The water loss - maybe go for something as simple as replacing the pressure cap - if it is lifting 'early' and the system not pressurising correctly it could lead to water loss, and also the smell of antifeeze.
I think that the hose connector design at the bulkhead dictates the type of heater matrix - making the possible replacements non-interchangeable.

Thanks for the reply pal, I don't know if this confirms anything but I do notice, the engine temp gauge goes right up to the centre mark but then drops under it and settles, what you suggest is by far the cheapest option first so I will get a new cap ordered, you never know I might just get lucky Smile

That could be a sticking thermostat - typically it has to run hot to start opening, hence the fall in coolant temperature once it has opened. Not necessarily an issue but if you have to drain the coolant at some point maybe worth changing.
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