Starting Problem and Emergency Brake System Fault

[kingy1912]

Hi there,

Went to start the 2020 model 1.5 blue Hdi this morning and it would not start. It was turning over but unable to fire and had an orange emergency brake system fault flash up on the dash. This occurs every time it turns over but is not present if you press the vehicles diagnostic function.

I called out the RAC and they retreived PE20EE DeNOx System, emmission control ineffective & P2291 Starting monitoring

He seems to think from this that the timing belt has skipped and the timing is out. I explained to him that it sounded like it was starting and wanted to go but then stopped. He says it sounds like it was going to start and then its skipped and that is why it has stopped. He checked the belt and nudged it round by putting it in gear and says the belts still appears to be tensioned leading to his thoughts that it appears to have skipped and not snapped.

He then went on to mention that he thinks these models have a wet belt which i know nothing about and from his travels he says this belt going is a common issue on these cars.

At the moment the garage is around 1 to 2 weeks to even look at it but they dont know if they can even fix the problem unless it is simple. The have suggested taking it to Citroen but they are currently a 4 week wait so i think it is best to get it stripped and checked to see if what the RAC suggests may be the issue first.

I am looking to gather any relevant information that may help the garage out so would be interested to know if anyone has come across this issue with these fault codes present before. If you google it then there is a multitude of similar situations but nothing the same and they go from a simple battery replacement to fuse boxes and BSI's. Nothing appears to be mentioned about the belts.

My garage has found a technical bulletin describing similar symptoms releated to a weight sensor in the seats and faulty wiring.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks

[notsofast]

I don't see any reason to doubt what the RAC guy said about the 1.5 having a wet belt, and it's somewhat concerning that he'd seen belt problems recurrently with these engines.

As I hadn't heard of wet belts before, I did a bit of googling - the comments on this page are interesting: https://community.screwfix.com/threads/t...ll.245909/  Although the comments are about a 2.0 litre Euro 6 compliant Ford engine, the 1.5 HDi used in the Berlingo possibly uses similar technology, as it is also Euro 6 compliant and was developed with or by Ford.

[kingy1912]

Hi there notsofast,

He did say to me ford were large users of this belt system but are not so much now. He also mentioned that they were changing them as they came in as failures. It is interesting to see how they use technology that is actually poorer and pass it off a more progressive. I would like to think a degrading of the belt is not my issue as i change oil every 9-10k. The belt was also supposed to be changed at 60k when she was in for a water pump under warranty. However this probably did not cover the wet belt lifting oil from the sump.

I am thinking it may be an oil pump failure as closer inspection of the fault codes points to cyclinder compression and oil pressure. It would appear with some assumptions that the correct pressure of oil is not making its way through the engine to allow the engine to start. Could well be a belt issue but could be the pump or an electrical issue also.

When i was driving yesterday during the day the brake warning flashed up telling me i was to close to someone but there was no other car there. It flashed on and straight off again and this is possibly the moment whatever it was has went wrong. However the car was stopped and started again after this a couple of times.

I hold to the hope that it is a far simplier fix than worst case senario although it would be good if someone could confirm if they have wet belts in them or if it is limited to certain engines.

I suppose if it is the belt then simply stripping the covers off will reveal this to be these case or not. If not they may well need to look at removing the sump to investigate properly.

[kingy1912]

I don't see any reason to doubt what the RAC guy said about the 1.5 having a wet belt, and it's somewhat concerning that he'd seen belt problems recurrently with these engines.

As I hadn't heard of wet belts before, I did a bit of googling - the comments on this page are interesting: https://community.screwfix.com/threads/t...ll.245909/  Although the comments are about a 2.0 litre Euro 6 compliant Ford engine, the 1.5 HDi used in the Berlingo possibly uses similar technology, as it is also Euro 6 compliant and was developed with or by Ford.

My engine is the DV5RD and looking at pictures of the oil pump it would appear that this pump is not situated in the sump so may well not be a wet belt type. It looks like it is situated against the side of the engine behind the crankshaft.

[kingy1912]

Citroen have confirmed this morning that no wet belt system is fitted. It is however fitted to other HDi engines. As they guy said its not on this model but it is fitted to others.

[kingy1912]

Ok so an update from the garage after they have carried out some diagnostics. They have discovered from the fault code PE20EE DeNOx System, emmission control ineffective that it is most likely the AdBlue tank.

Rectification is by three potential methods, software update, communication problem with the adblue pump or pump failure. They discovered that the injector was blocked with soot! They can't really say if it has blocked and backed up to the pump or if it is blocked because it has not been injecting??? I am awaiting further diagnostics once they have the wiring diagram so they can test the circuit. However when they unblocked the injector they reinitialised the pump and it was not running so they suggest this points to a knackered pump unit.

P2291 Starting monitoring appears to be related to the adblue fault and is present because the vehicle was preventing itself from starting.

The issue of the emergency braking system fault appears to be a short in the rear passenger side ABS circuit. This is most likely the ABS sensor itself but will also be investigated.

All and all it is going to be quite expensive as the best price i can find at the moment for the adblue tank is £1250 inc vat.

I would be interested to know if anyone thinks this could be a software update issue? As nothing has been changed on the vehicle i would assume the software currently installed should not be the issue unless there has been a spontanous corruption somewhere. Any advice on this course of action would be appreciated as for a software update to be done it would need to go to Citroen. With the car unable to start this will be quite a difficult undertaking.

Thanks

[Sol]

I doubt very much it's a software problem. I write industrial machinery software (same as in your ECU) for a living, and if it works to start with, then it doesn't just get broken or corrupted.

You'll end up needing a tank, pump and injector.

[kingy1912]

I doubt very much it's a software problem. I write industrial machinery software (same as in your ECU)  for a living, and if it works to start with, then it doesn't just get broken or corrupted.

You'll end up needing a tank, pump and injector.

Hi Zion, 

Thanks for your reply. A quick google of the fault code with peugeot or citroen at start has brought up some interesting posts about the dealership doing a software update to reduce sensor sensitivity? I would assume that this is not the case considering after reinitilisation that the pump is still inoperable. There is not even any attempt by the pump to send fluid at all.

The tank and pump come as a whole unit but i am interested in you saying about a new injector. Do you beleive that it would need a new one after being cleaned and unblocked? It was only replaced 40 thousand miles ago already.

Thanks

[Sol]

I hope it's the lesser of possibilities for you of course, and maybe the injector will be ok with a clean but the pump and tank as a unit will be pretty hefty so the injector cost probably pales in comparison to them. These Adblue systems seem to fail pretty regularly on the Citroen vehicles.

[notsofast]

Citroen have confirmed this morning that no wet belt system is fitted. It is however fitted to other HDi engines. As they guy said its not on this model but it is fitted to others.

I'm guessing this applies to all the 1.5 HDi models (my 1.5 100PS HDi  van is also a year 2020 model).  I did read somewhere that the 130PS engine is different to the 75 and 100 ones, though this might be just the turbo construction.