For Bill_Andrews - engine cooling issues

[Sol]

@Bill_andrews

Hi Bill, as I can't post attachments on a PM (personal message) I thought I would start this thread, and you can reply.

The engine cooling fans have given up in your case with several fault codes including those for the DPF system. 

The reason for the DPF codes are that if the cooling fans don't work then the ECU cannot start a regen cycle, as it needs to rapidly cool the engine if you stop driving while a regen is in operation.

So check Masterfuse MF3 - it's the main fan controller power fuse and is hidden beneath the main engine fusebox, you have to lift the main tray up and the Masterfuses are mounted below. The large bolt on a main supply cable, is above them.

The MFs are numbered left to right. The controller you say has been replaced, so I'd be looking at that fuse next. Mind they are large and not standard sizes but can be obtained online (eBay, Amazon, even perhaps Halfords though I've never tried there) 

It's a 50A fuse. There are no spares on the vehicle and you can't try one of the others in that position, they're all critical systems fuses. A lot of garages or mechanics wouldn't know to look there and in fairness are not so good with electrical faults in a lot of cases.

Here are the diagrams and fuse layouts:

Fuses:
   
   

Where they are:
   

Schematic:

  Engine Cooling.pdf (Size: 119.22 KB / Downloads: 6)

[Bill_andrews]

Thank you very much for going through this trouble.
Have already downloaded your diagrams from one of your previous discussions about fans.
Before retiring, I was an electronics engineer all my life, but vehicle wiring (Especially PSA vehicles is another wacky subject).
Have checked all fuses, including the "hidden" fuses. all is good in that department. Got lots of spares from scrappy.

As well as replacing the fan controller, have verified the fan is working by applying raw power.

One of my concerns is that a couple of years ago i had a problem of the fan running at high speed all the time. the local citroen agent cleared the problem but was not very forthcoming in what the problem was. Have they done something that would take it out of normal configuration.

Is there any thoughts that it could be an ECU problem? Have a spare, i know it needs re-coding to enable the ignition but would it prove that the fan circuitry within the ECU be OK.
The van is a 2017 Enterprise 429,000miles. meticulously maintained.

[Sol]

Hi Bill, then we are cut from the exact same career cloth.

Ok so best plan is to get Diagbox and for your year of vehicle (same as mine) you would need to get the 7.83 version including the Actia 3 interface (full chip Rev C) and also buy the 9.xx version of DiagBox software as your ECU will be the EDC17C60 which is not covered by the previous version of DiagBox software (I found out this week trying to resolve an issue I have myself) - the interface costs about £60-70 but the VM software after that is cheap <£10.

Get the VM version, its way easier and needs no installation other than putting in VMWare Player or Virtualbox on a Windows 10 or even 7 laptop (ideally 10) which supports virtualization.

Ask the seller to confirm v9.91 or 9.68 or 9.96 is a virtual machine version. Then connect the interface, hand the control of it to the virtual machine (devices > USB > PSA100) and you can then scan for codes and look at the configuration.

V7.83 which is much older can be used to look at the configuration of the BSI but doesn't recognise the EDC17C60 ECU so is no use for that.

I would then use live tests in Diagbox (actuator tests) to see if the fans will run when commanded. This test is available in Diagbox. (And plenty of tutorials on YouTube)

The dealer may have configured the vehicle as single speed fan and not dual speed 140W version. Not sure if you will be able to alter that with V9.xx as I believe most configuration functions were moved to online (Citroen only) but am about to use this new version myself this weekend so will let you know.

[Bill_andrews]

Hi Bill, then we are cut from the exact same career cloth.

Ok so best plan is to get Diagbox and for your year of vehicle (same as mine) you would need to get the 7.83 version including the Actia 3 interface (full chip Rev C) and also buy the 9.xx version of DiagBox software as your ECU will be the EDC17C60 which is not covered by the previous version of DiagBox software (I found out this week trying to resolve an issue I have myself) - the interface costs about £60-70 but the VM software after that is cheap <£10.

Get the VM version, its way easier and needs no installation other than putting in VMWare Player or Virtualbox on a Windows 10 or even 7 laptop (ideally 10)  which supports virtualization.

Ask the seller to confirm v9.91 or 9.68 or 9.96 is a virtual machine version. Then connect the interface, hand the control of it to the virtual machine (devices > USB > PSA100)  and you can then scan for codes and look at the configuration.

V7.83 which is much older can be used to look at the configuration of the BSI but doesn't recognise the EDC17C60 ECU so is no use for that.

I would then use live tests in Diagbox (actuator tests) to see if the fans will run when commanded. This test is available in Diagbox. (And plenty of tutorials on YouTube)

The dealer may have configured the vehicle as single speed fan and not dual speed 140W version. Not sure if you will be able to alter that with V9.xx as I believe most configuration functions were moved to online (Citroen only) but am about to use this new version myself this weekend so will let you know.

[Bill_andrews]

Hi Zion

Thanks very much for your reply. Have been running V9.91 for about a year now, so have used it quite a lot (nothing too complex though). I am a courier with around 100,000 miles per year under my belt. Diag travels everywhere with me as I don't really have time for the local garage response of "We can fit you in next week"

Went into the actuator tests yesterday which proved that the low and high speed cooling fan does not work. Tried a couple of other tests just to show me how various test pass on completion, found it quite interesting.

My main concern now is the quality of the wiring info that I am working with, its getting very confusing. My local PSA specialist printed me off the powertrain/engine cooling official diagram (marked Peugeot), have subscribed to the Haynes online manuals and the diagram you used. Don't know where to start. My diagram shows the correct ECU connector numbers as 120vNR and 70vNR.

Do you have any thoughts on this matter.

[Sol]

So 120V NR means 120 pin plug, Black. The schematic I posted is the official one too, from Citroen ServiceBox. But could be too old as I used the non official (VM) version which stops at 2013.

The control module (marked "resistor" on your printed diagram) is a module mounted to the top left front side of the radiator. Is that getting power on the line from the battery mounted fusebox BFDB under the red cover, fuse 10? Not marked on here but is in your printed diagram.

  B9 BFDB Batt Module Fuses 2.pdf (Size: 97.83 KB / Downloads: 5)

[Bill_andrews]

Marked resistor but is in fact the fan controller which was replaced by a genuine OEM.
Yes, 2vGR has 12v on pin 2, also 4vNR pin3 has 12v on it as well. Have checked out the continuity of all connections between the fan controller (1522) and the ECU.

[Sol]

Ok so some things to test:

Pins @ controller 1522 on 4V NR

2 - 1550R - Fan control 2 (-)
4 - 1599R - Fan Unit Diagnostic Info
3 - 1590A - Fan Unit Relay Power Supply
1 - 1540R - Fan Control 1 (-)

So the engine main control relay R1 supplies power to the fan controller when the ignition is on, at Pin 3, then the two speeds are produced by switching to ground, pin 1 for low speed, or pin 2 for high speed. 

2V NR Pin 1 is just the heavy duty output from the controller to the fan motor of course, so in theory you can ground 4V NR pins 1 or 2 on the controller with the ignition on, and the fans should run at either speed, to test the circuit.

If this works, but the ECU never turns the fans on when commanded, then the outputs from the ECU are presumably, toast. Or the ECU ground is floating...so it can't pull those outputs down.

The coolant switch could have been the issue, if they worked from DiagBox actuator tests, but they don't, so has to be a missing ground return, no power (not that, you have tested those) or a bad ECU.

Not telling you how to suck eggs Bill, honestly, but when it's my car I over think things, and often others have pitched in with clearer thoughts. Hopefully in this case you see where I'm going and maybe like me, you are over thinking it.

[Bill_andrews]

By the way, how did you get on with the V9.91?

[Sol]

So I ended up getting three versions, as the first two were in French (my French is not so hot) and the other night, I got a fully English version 9.68 and have not yet tried it, but I do know that coding cannot be done on any version higher than 7.xx as all of the tele coding functions are now online only (i.e. proper PSA subscription required)

I suspect mine has been tampered with and coded to have some functions it does not have, so yet to be seen. Oddly the BSI part is fully accessible on 7.83 but the ECU being an EDC17C60 is not supported, neither is the ESP controller nor the ABS module.