1.5 Blue HDi info: oil and chain

[notsofast]

1.5 Blue HDi owners might be interested in a recent conversation I had with a guy in the parts department of my local dealership, regarding the correct oil to use.

Last May, Citroen Customer Care (CCC) advised that my vehicle should use one of 3 recommended oils:
 0W20 B71 2010 (C5)
 0W30 B71 2312 (C1C2)
 EM:0W30 B71 2312

Last month, when I finally had time to buy some, I found that local parts stockists only recommended 0W30 oils, whereas the Citroen dealership only recommended a 0W20. They were all given my reg number.  To clarify, I contacted CCC again and they now only recommended the 0W20 B71 2010 (C5).

When I spoke to the guy in the parts dept and asked if he could explain the difference/change, he said that Toyota (who also use these engines) had done research and concluded that only the 0W20 should be recommended.  In this chat I also queried the guy about possible cambelt issues with these engines (there's at least a couple of threads on here), and he suggested that the change in the oil recommendation might be connected to this, because these engines apparently have a cambelt and cam chain, and the latter is lubricated by the engine oil.  The guy suggested that the 0W20 oil might give the chain better protection against wear.

So the moral is: keep up to date with recommended oils.  Not sure if all 1.5 HDi vehicles are affected the same - best to submit your reg number to Citroen to find out.

[kingy1912]

The 1.5 is different depending upon the power output as far as i am lead to believe. I have a standard 20 plate 1.5 and Citroen have confirmed to me that it only has a cam belt have not heard of them having a chain but higher power ones have a wet belt system. This is prone to failure and may be something to do with the change.

It is unusual to hear them recommending C5 oil as Citroen spec recommends C1 or C2 only as an alternative because of the requirement for lows saps. Cant imagine a higher C5 saps oil would be helping your DPF. On experience of the DPF just being replaced you want it to last as long as possible. I just paid out £1650 to have my DPF replaced today.

[notsofast]

Here is a thread from a few months back that details serious problems resulting from cam chains on these vehicles. It's not a wet belt system.
https://www.berlingoforum.com/thread-21681.html
I guessed that this is the chain that the Citroen guy was referring to.

As regards to saps levels and using the C5 oil, it's not something I'd be willing to experiment with by going against Citroen's recommendation.  The oil they sold me is by Total, and on the can it says "LOW SAPS PARTICULATE FILTER".

As an aside, folks might be interested/concerned/amused to hear that when I first enquired at the dealership about buying oil, they gave a price of £94.80 per 5 litre can.  I said, "er, I'll have a think about that, and just buy the filter and sump plug for the time being while I enquire elsewhere", to which they straightaway said "well we might be able to offer a better price" and the guy dealing with my enquiry went out the back and then came back with a new price of £56.88 !  So, don't always accept the first price given!  Eventually I did buy it from them at that lower price, but first I did enquire at local parts stockists, which is how I discovered the discrepancy in oil spec recommendation.

[notsofast]

Just a P.S. for anyone deciding to change the oil on these engines themselves:

The oil filter housing is hard to access (sort of under the air inlet) and the tightening torque required (25.5 Nm in this case) is embossed on the end, but only a short torque ratchet will fit (I bought a 1/2" drive one that's only 255mm long, and that kept knocking against the inside of the grille area - anything much longer and you wouldn't be able to turn it).

[Hvars]

the chain issue you are talkinbg about is documented here regarding HDI 1.5 motors :

https://www.largus.fr/actualite-automobi...3%A9taires.

Sorry its in french but i am sure you can translate it.

[notsofast]

Thanks for that link. To save other members some effort, I've run run that article through google translate and copied it out below.  Google translate seems much more capable than it was 10 years ago, and the translation is generally comprehensible.
This is the article translated:


PEUGEOT, CITROEN, DS, OPEL. BREAKAGE PROBLEM ON THE 1.5 DIESEL (DV5)


Exclusive. In addition to problems with the 1.2 PureTech engine, the brands of the PSA group (Citroën, DS, Opel and Peugeot), such as Toyota, are in trouble with the 1.5 BlueHDi diesel. Failure of the camshaft chain causes it to be damaged or even destroyed. Here's why !

Whether in gasoline or diesel, the PSA group is not varnished with its small engines. Inaugurated in 2017 on the Peugeot 308 II phase 2, the 1.5 BlueHDi (DV5) block had already stood out for its problems with injection and AdBlue tank seizure. But that's without taking into account the problem of engine destruction, which affects Euro 6.3 (or Euro 6.D) blocks produced since December 31, 2019 according to an internal technical note sent to dealers of the various brands.


Origin and symptoms

(Image caption: The defect of the 1.5 BlueHDi is at the level of the camshaft drive chain, which loosens then breaks.)

Two problems can be identified by owners. The first is a popping noise from the timing belt due to slack in the camshaft drive chain. The second results in the engine not starting due to the breakage of said chain, which leads to more or less significant deterioration of the 1.5 BlueHDi. In both cases, the chain that connects the two camshafts is pointed out, and in particular its resistance over time.


What technical solutions?

(Image caption: Retrofitted 1.5 diesel engines with an 8 mm camshaft chain (left drawing) can be recognized by their boss on the crankcase (b))

According to the two technical notes in question, the PSA group has made modifications to this engine. Among them, the assembly of an 8 mm chain instead of 7 and that of so-called new generation exhaust valves. In the absence of a precise date, how do you know if the engine has been modernized? If the camshaft housing has a bump and the engraved reference is equal to 98 305 804 80, this is the case. Conversely, if the reference is equal to 98 126 472 80 and the casing has a flat shape, the motor is fitted with a 7 mm chain.


The different types of intervention

(Image caption: The PSA group has made technical changes with the fitting of an 8 mm chain instead of 7 and new exhaust valves.)

Depending on the damage observed during the inspections, the repairs recommended to the workshops are different, as follows:

1. If the valves are bent, the camshafts damaged... but without damage to the combustion chambers and the cylinder head, the following parts must mainly be replaced: valves, springs, latches, camshafts, chain and shaft tensioner cams, timing kit, etc.

2. If there is no breakage of the parts, but the sealing of the valves is not compliant and the combustion chamber is damaged, the complete engine must be replaced. Note that dealers may receive new engines that have not been modernized due to lack of availability. In this case, they have to do the aftermarket retrofit.

3. If there is no breakage of the parts but the tightness of the valves is correct, all the parts must be replaced as in point 1, except for the valves.


The vehicles concerned:

Manufactured in more than one million units in 2020, this engine equips more than thirty models of the brands of the PSA group, as well as the utilities manufactured on behalf of Toyota. All vehicles manufactured since December 31, 2019 may be affected by this manufacturing defect:

   Citroen. C3 III, C3 Aircross, C4 III, C4 Cactus, C4 Spacetourer, C5 Aircross, Berlingo III, Berlingo III Van, Traveler and Jumpy.
   DS. DS 3 Crossback, DS 4 II and DS 7 Crossback.
   Vauxhall. Corsa, Mokka, Crossland, Grandland, Combo, Combo Cargo, Zafira and Vivaro.
   Peugeot. 208 II, 2008 II, 308 II and III, 508 II, 3008 II, 5008 II, Rifter, Partner and Expert.
   Toyota. Proace City, Proace City Verso, Proace and Proace Verso.


What support ?

In a document dating from July 2022, the PSA group indicates that this technical failure is theoretically covered at 100% for vehicles less than 5 years old OR less than 150,000 km on the first due date. However, the dealer will use a simulation tool to refine the actual coverage, which will change according to age and mileage, but also maintenance monitoring and network loyalty.

Suffice to say that an oil change or overhaul carried out out of time, the use of an oil that is not recommended, etc. are grounds for refusal of coverage by the manufacturers, even if the internal documents prove that it is a question of a design flaw. Distrust therefore for buyers of a used vehicle, who must listen to the noise of the engine as well as the good follow-up of the maintenance, under penalty of having surprises.

[hubber]

Does anyone have any clue where to look for that number on the camshaft housing? Is is possible to see it in the engine department without lifting the car or dismantling anything?

[notsofast]

Does anyone have any clue where to look for that number on the camshaft housing? Is is possible to see it in the engine department without lifting the car or dismantling anything?

There's a diagram in the original French article linked to in the post by Hvars (above), though I don't know how easy it is to see (I've not tried looking yet).

[notsofast]

I emailed Citroen Customer Care with my reg no. and VIN and asked them if they could tell me whether my K9's engine has the 7mm chain or the upgraded 8mm one, and also, if it's the 7mm, if it was possible to have it upgraded. They said I should contact my dealership about it as they are there to "provide support". I thought maybe CCC were also there to provide support, but it seems not in this case.  I've already spoken to the dealership about it and they just tell me that the vehicle isn't subject to any recalls on cam chains.

[hubber]

OK, but this is not 100% that you have 7mm chain.
I'll definetly ask the mechanic to check that number on the chasis on my next service visit.