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Berlingo electrics gone daft
#1
Hi to all, just got a Berlingo Multispace 2003, not a complete nail but... it's having weird electrical problems, turns over fine but will not start. 

About the only things working are radio, electric windows and a small red flashing led. Just opening the door turns on the dash lights & STOP (see pic) also the headlights and the rear wiper motor.  After a while everything turns off.  The indicators/horn/front wipers never work, the fuel gauge always shows empty. 

I have done the following-

Check battery voltage = 12.5
Check fluid levels

Check earths & fusebox supply leads
Check all fuses in the fusebox & BSI
Check loom for obvious damage

Prayed a bit
Put 5l of fresh petrol in
Check/clean visible loom connectors
Remove BSI to check for water/corrosion
Prayed a bit harder

Done BSI reset inc shunt removal

The owner was very vague about when this started, did mention heavy rain but I can't see water damage or corrosion anywhere.   Can I run any simple tests on the BSI to see if it is knackered or just gone sulky like French things do?  Can all the instrument stalks completely fail and cause odd things like this eg short circuit?  Cheers for any help, Mick
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#2
The symptoms look to me as if there is a bad earth somewhere.

Opening the door may be giving an earth through the interior light. The radio and electric windows ,interior light work for 20 mins or so before shutting off to save the battery after switching off the ignition.

does the interior light front/back has a led in it? if so remove as see what difference if any,

As for your BSI Zion is the man for them.

did you check the engine fuse box ?
2010 B9 red XTR w a v. 
2001 1.9d DW8B white  Berlingo  
2005 2.l green Berlingo
2001 1.9d DW8B white  Berlingo 
berlingo 1.4 red multispace
1993 xud 1.9 red partner
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#3
(23-06-2023, 09:26 AM)brodfather11 Wrote:  The symptoms look to me as if there is a bad earth somewhere.

Opening the door may be giving an earth through the interior light.  The radio and electric windows ,interior light work for 20 mins or so before shutting off to save the battery after switching off the ignition.

does the interior light front/back  has a led in it? if so remove as see what difference if any,

As for your BSI Zion is the man for them.

did you check the engine fuse box ?


Thank you good point I'm checking earths out, interior lights are just old tech and switching them all off doesn't change anything.  I've checked all the fuses including those big hidden ones with a meter.  It is odd how nothing on the stalks works... Zion will be a busy chap dealing with duff BSI units I'd like to rule out something simple before bothering him.  

Its an old car but only 3 owners and done under 80k so worth trying to sort out... is pinout data for the BSI available anywhere?  eg what plug connects to what, what voltages are at certain test points?

Cheers, Mick
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#4
Good point Brodfather on the engine fusebox checks, and main earths from engine to body and battery to body.

Mick, this is indeed a weird set of behaviours. There is no simple check on the BSI and you have an early vehicle using VANBUS comms, so it would need an
version 7.62 of Diagbox on a laptop and the Lexia interface to see what it actually thinks is wrong.

You can buy the kit stated as 7.83 on eBay or the chinese ODB Diag websites (google this) and just not update as far as that, sticking at any version from 7.57 to 7.62 and your car would read fine, via the OBD socket. Best advice, get the VMWare Player version and use that, passing the Lexia / Actia interface to the VM and it will work. No config needed and no installing, that is a godsend as DiagBox is a pig to install. Then do vehicle select, Berlingo, Global Scan, see what comes up. Click the FAULT entry next to any device showing an error and it will let you see what it thinks is wrong.

Generic OBD readers will be of no use, they don't work well on Citroen at the best of times.

You have carried out a lot of the proper basic checks, so as Brodfather says have a look at the engine fusebox, and check the engine ECU - the BSI controls all things non-engine related, with the exception of it carrying the Immobiliser in it, and the engine ECU asks the BSI if it is ok to start, so if the BSI reads the key transponder (little black chip inside the key head on the old vehicles) then it answers "YES" and the ECU will allow the fuel injection to operate. If not, no start, but it will crank.

So checks:

1. Key transponder is present in the key head (and no one has swapped the barrel and key out, as this will also make it crank but not start)
2. Ignition barrel is not decrepit and badly worn
3. Sensing wire loop for the key is present around the outside of the key barrel
4. No one has jump started it and put the leads the wrong way round; Citroen use BLACK cable on the live side of the battery, at the front terminal. The rear is negative, but also BLACK. People often see the black cable and assume NEG but it isn't, connecting backwards will screw the BSI and you have a big paperweight on your hands.
5. The fuel pump is working
6. The engine fusebox doesn't have a family of mice inside it
7. The engine ECU has not been unplugged with the battery connected; as this locks it in "no start authorisation" mode and it will never, ever start. This would need reset using the OEM security PIN and Diagbox, a fragile maneuver.

Also make sure the SH-HS shunt link (you mentioned that) was not in the "PARK" position on the BSi mounted fusebox, or it will not work properly.

Let us know how these checks go. (if any info on this post is a mystery, just ask away and we will elaborate)

Some documentation: (what model do you have? 1.4i petrol?)


Attached Files
.pdf   M59 BSI1.pdf (Size: 168.6 KB / Downloads: 8)
.pdf   M59 OBDII.pdf (Size: 132.7 KB / Downloads: 9)
.pdf   M59 PSF1.pdf (Size: 262.49 KB / Downloads: 4)
.pdf   Citroen Components.PDF (Size: 153.2 KB / Downloads: 8)
.pdf   wiring legende.pdf (Size: 73.44 KB / Downloads: 6)
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Current:
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[-] The following 3 users say Thank You to Zion for this post:
  • mrbmremrn23, skegg, smutts
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#5
(23-06-2023, 11:55 AM)Zion Wrote:  Good point Brodfather on the engine fusebox checks, and main earths from engine to body and battery to body.

Mick, this is indeed a weird set of behaviours. There is no simple check on the BSI and you have an early vehicle using VANBUS comms, so it would need an
version 7.62 of Diagbox on a laptop and the Lexia interface to see what it actually thinks is wrong.

You can buy the kit stated as 7.83 on eBay or the chinese ODB Diag websites (google this) and just not update as far as that, sticking at any version from 7.57 to 7.62 and your car would read fine, via the OBD socket. Best advice, get the VMWare Player version and use that, passing the Lexia / Actia interface to the VM and it will work. No config needed and no installing, that is a godsend as DiagBox is a pig to install. Then do vehicle select, Berlingo, Global Scan, see what comes up. Click the FAULT entry next to any device showing an error and it will let you see what it thinks is wrong.

Generic OBD readers will be of no use, they don't work well on Citroen at the best of times.

You have carried out a lot of the proper basic checks, so as Brodfather says have a look at the engine fusebox, and check the engine ECU - the BSI controls all things non-engine related, with the exception of it carrying the Immobiliser in it, and the engine ECU asks the BSI if it is ok to start, so if the BSI reads the key transponder (little black chip inside the key head on the old vehicles) then it answers "YES" and the ECU will allow the fuel injection to operate. If not, no start, but it will crank.

So checks:

1. Key transponder is present in the key head (and no one has swapped the barrel and key out, as this will also make it crank but not start)
2. Ignition barrel is not decrepit and badly worn
3. Sensing wire loop for the key is present around the outside of the key barrel
4. No one has jump started it and put the leads the wrong way round; Citroen use BLACK cable on the live side of the battery, at the front terminal. The rear is negative, but also BLACK. People often see the black cable and assume NEG but it isn't, connecting backwards will screw the BSI and you have a big paperweight on your hands.
5. The fuel pump is working
6. The engine fusebox doesn't have a family of mice inside it
7. The engine ECU has not been unplugged with the battery connected; as this locks it in "no start authorisation" mode and it will never, ever start. This would need reset using the OEM security PIN and Diagbox, a fragile maneuver.

Also make sure the SH-HS shunt link (you mentioned that) was not in the "PARK" position on the BSi mounted fusebox, or it will not work properly.

Let us know how these checks go. (if any info on this post is a mystery, just ask away and we will elaborate)

Some documentation: (what model do you have? 1.4i petrol?)

Excellent info Zion thank you very much. You have worried me a bit now, mostly by using the word "weird" when you must have seen just about everything on these cars... the Berlingo (1.6 petrol) is from a friend who has owned it for a few years, basically just as a run about.  I don't think he's messed with the keys or anything else, he doesn't do anything to cars.  The dash is showing about every light except the immobiliser icon.  

It is just possible he left the van awhile and the battery went flat, tried jump starting but connected the wrong way... but not fessing up to that.  The shunt link only seems to fit in one position, looks like park is done by a smaller one.

I've had dealings with mice in cars before so been checking carefully, they can cause havoc (what is tasty about wiring loom?)

Something makes a buzz when the ignition is turned on, fuel pump? Is there a fuel pipe connection I can open and is it OK to pull the coil pack and plugs out to see if cranking the starter makes sparks?  Is it possible to easily check the injectors are getting fed signals?  

I'm looking for the code checking kit but if anyone with the right box of tricks to check the codes is in the North Lincs area (I'm near Barton Upon Humber) would probably rather pay them than tool up with something that isn't going to get used much. My last Frenchie was a Renault Fuego and it was fun, but things seem to have moved on and anything built after 2000 looks to have a limited life, how much is a Trabant these days?

Cheers, Mick
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#6
"My last Frenchie was a Renault Fuego and it was fun"

I assume North Lincs is fairly level?
The ventilation plenum had a nasty habit of filling the car up with rain if parked on the slightest cross fall.
Loud drone at 60mph in 5th gear.
How many pairs of sunglasses did you loose out of the passenger window on roundabouts?

Still miss those seats though.
192,500 miles,  (Resurrected at 186,000)
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#7
(28-06-2023, 10:16 AM)smutts Wrote:  "My last Frenchie was a Renault Fuego and it was fun"

I assume North Lincs is fairly level?
You'd be surprised but the Fuego was down in Kent, mid 80's

The ventilation plenum had a nasty habit of filling the car up with rain if parked on  the slightest cross fall.
Yup and it's usually straight into a box of electrickery!

Loud drone at 60mph in 5th gear.
How many pairs of sunglasses did you loose out of the passenger window on roundabouts?
Can't remember but I do recall bits dropping off as fast as it went... 

Still miss those seats though.
Great design, less great build... wonder how many of them are left

Current Frenchie - noticed the OS wiper panel had been removed some while ago (damaged plastic) so split the BSI open and there's some corrosion in one corner.  Not a enough to damage the tracks, just cleaned it up and reinstalled but parts could have been affected.  I fix old electronics and didn't like the look of that thing, not even many capacitors to replace which is usually what fail in older circuits.  Relays maybe?

Still can't find anything really wrong with the Berlingo, but using the rare VANbus it must be worth a fortune and is a museum piece so looking to tool up with.. with whatever Zion said I needed so I can read the codes Smile

Cheers, Mick


Attached Files Thumbnail(s)
   
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#8
Hi Mick. So electronics is my work game. The BSI is a multilayer board, with surface mount components and quad flatpack ICs so you won't see obvious caps but they are there, just a couple of mm long.

Water at the corner can get between the 12 layers or so of a PCB and short layers out. It's probably the issue. Maybe you can try to find power rails like 5v, 12v and check them for low impedance in the sub 10k range, thinking less than 500R and from there, hook up a meter to the low impedance circuit anywhere, then use a heat gun carefully or better still a hot air rework station, heating components up one or two at a time, working across the board then down, across etc.

When the impedance shoots up, you've hit the source. Letting it cool brings the low imp short back. Works for semiconductors, caps, diodes etc.

Tombstone them or remove and the short should be gone. Then it's a guessing game to replace the right value but most caps will be 0.1uF decouplers. Relays can be swapped out with something from RS and diodes can be swapped for an IN4001, 4148 or 4004 depending on size and type you can see.

Beyond that, you know there's little else you can do if it is damaged. Also no schematics exist.

Can't fit a BSI from the scrappie, as you need the security EPROM contents carried over to a blanked board of the exact same part number, then it needs coded with diagbox.
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Current:
2017 B9 1.6 BlueHDi Van
______________________
Previous:
2012 B9 1.6 HDi Van
2008 M59 1.6 HDi Van
2003 M59 1.9D Van
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#9
(29-06-2023, 06:30 AM)Zion Wrote:  Hi Mick. So electronics is my work game. The BSI is a multilayer board, with surface mount components and quad flatpack ICs so you won't see obvious caps but they are there, just a couple of mm long.

Water at the corner can get between the 12 layers or so of a PCB and short layers out. It's probably the issue. Maybe you can try to find power rails like 5v, 12v and check them for low impedance in the sub 10k range, thinking less than 500R and from there, hook up a meter to the low impedance circuit anywhere, then use a heat gun carefully or better still a hot air rework station, heating components up one or two at a time, working across the board then down, across etc.

When the impedance shoots up, you've hit the source. Letting it cool brings the low imp short back. Works for semiconductors, caps, diodes etc.

Tombstone them or remove and the short should be gone. Then it's a guessing game to replace the right value but most caps will be 0.1uF decouplers. Relays can be swapped out with something from RS and diodes can be swapped for an IN4001, 4148 or 4004 depending on size and type you can see.

Beyond that, you know there's little else you can do if it is damaged. Also no schematics exist.

Can't fit a BSI from the scrappie, as you need the security EPROM contents carried over to a blanked board of the exact same part number, then it needs coded with diagbox.

Thank you again Zion I usually work on stuff 40+ years older than this but get the idea of what you're saying. Electrolytic capacitors in old stuff are usually the trouble not the low value ones. Schematics and test data might still exist on the BSI - Siemens made the thing to a specification and someone would have had data to jig test each unit - I would think each BSI was bench tested before being plugged into a brand new car.   The schematics and test data are just not published into the public domain, and without that info it would be miraculous to properly fix something this complex.

PSA knew this when they built the EPROM into the unit, and the interlinking between modules. After about 20 years even well built consumer electronics will be going a bit dodgy ensuring the vehicle is BER Beyond Economic Repair, regardless of its mechanical or body condition.  I guess it's not important when most cars are knackered after that kind of time.

 
Still not had time to properly check all the basics over and I'm hoping to get a code reader so will report back once I have more info.  Cheers, Mick
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#10
No worries. The coding (and code reading) is only possible using software called Diagbox and an interface known as Actia. (Some call it Lexia, an old name) and without that, you will not get far with diagnostic codes. Any generic reader is next to useless. For one, they don't speak Vanbus and for two, Citroen split the OBD socket into two buses, one for diag and the other for other comms. The pins which are usually diag bus are reversed with the comm bus so most readers don't even detect the vehicle.

It had to legally support diagnostics (OBD) but there was no rule to say on which pins. That was not a legal standard though most were starting to use the same pins as each other, Citroen do not, even now.

Diagbox can be had as a kit from eBay with the adaptor, which ideally should be the "full chip" version. Stick to version 7.5-7.63 and don't go any further if you want to configure stuff like unlocking, windows up on the key locking etc. But 7.83 which is the name it will have on the auction page, is fine if you end up at the highest level, for diagnosis.

Do not buy a kit higher than v7.83, it will not work on your car. V8-9 are for much later vehicles. Similarly 7.83 does not work on my current van, as after 2015 you need v9.

Google Diagbox and spend the evening reading up. Runs best as a VM on Virtualbox or VMware Player.

Those versions need no install. Best to use.

Regular version is absolutely torture to install and takes an entire evening, often having to wipe it and start again. But the kit comes with this version, then buy the VM version off eBay for a tenner. Throw the disc in the drawer and use the VM.

Oh and the BSI is the Vanbus and Canbus comms bridge, for the entire vehicle so if it's truly buggered then you will not get connected or get crazy stuff back. Guess which device you are talking to with the Actia diagnostic interface...you guessed it, the BSI.

It's the gateway control to all other devices. Body Systems Interface.
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Current:
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Previous:
2012 B9 1.6 HDi Van
2008 M59 1.6 HDi Van
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[-] The following 2 users say Thank You to Zion for this post:
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