[Engine] Intermittent starting

[HenryD]

Hi guys,

I have a UK 1.6HDi Life 2008 which has served me well and I love it, so trying to keep it going. Getting an issue where intermittently I get absolutely nothing when I try to start the engine, which happens a couple of times and then it just starts without me having done anything! Recently in the hot weather it's gotten worse so that I have to leave it for about 20 minutes to cool down before it'll start again. The salient point is that there is no attempt to turn over at all but there is a 'click' from the right hand side of the steering wheel (RHD) where the inside fuse box is, which might be a starter relay because I'd expect a meatier click from the starter solenoid, but maybe not, I don't really know. Any suggestions gratefully received 

Does anybody know if the M59 1.6HDi has a starter relay, because I seen a wiring diagram where the key switch connects directly to the solenoid coil with not even a fuse in the way. This could have been a simplification though I guess 

If I have reposted a problem which is already covered, I apologise but I don't seem to be able to find it.
Thanks in advance,
H.

[Multispacer]

Hi guys,

I have a UK 1.6HDi Life 2008 which has served me well and I love it, so trying to keep it going. Getting an issue where intermittently I get absolutely nothing when I try to start the engine, which happens a couple of times and then it just starts without me having done anything! Recently in the hot weather it's gotten worse so that I have to leave it for about 20 minutes to cool down before it'll start again. The salient point is that there is no attempt to turn over at all but there is a 'click' from the right hand side of the steering wheel (RHD) where the inside fuse box is, which might be a starter relay because I'd expect a meatier click from the starter solenoid, but maybe not, I don't really know. Any suggestions gratefully received 

Does anybody know if the M59 1.6HDi has a starter relay, because I seen a wiring diagram where the key switch connects directly to the solenoid coil with not even a fuse in the way. This could have been a simplification though I guess 

If I have reposted a problem which is already covered, I apologise but I don't seem to be able to find it.
Thanks in advance,
H.

The 'click' syndrome is a known feature of a start motor failing on the Berlingo/Partner. I stand to be corrected but I do not think there is a separate starter relay as such, it's all at the starter motor. 

There have been instances on the forum with poor/loose/corroded earths causing the problem as well, so it's definitely worth having a good poke around to see if that might be the problem. 

If it is the starter it is a **** job for access two of the bolts are not too bad but the third is, well challenging, to put it mildly.

[HenryD]

I've had a look around to see if I can identify the wiring and check for a starter relay. I got some wiring diagrams from another post which are very close to (although not exactly) what I am seeing at the engine compartment fuse box (PSF1), the driver side fuse panel (BSI1) and the ignition key switch (CA00). Using this as a starter I disconnected the battery and traced the wiring between these components and found that the blue wire on the ignition switch goes to a blue connector resting on top of BSI1 and from there goes directly to Pin 1 of the 16 way black connector in PSF1 via an (orangy) red wire. That connects to a white wire on pin 2 of the 2 way black connector in PSF1 which goes directly to the starter solenoid.
So that means that there is NOT a starter relay on the M59 Berlingo, the solenoid is driven directly from the ignition switch (although this 12V supply shares the MF7 fuse with +CC and +AA on a 2 way black connector in BSI1). With this info I was able to check the drive voltage on Pin 1 of the 16 way black connector in PSF1 (the orangy red wire) and found that when cranking correctly this voltage is about 12.5V but is only 10.2V ish when not cranking. This means that its a problem with the ignition switch and I double checked this by using a short wire to 'jump' 12V from the battery to pin 1 (the orangy red wire) when in the no crank condition and the engine started immediately.
So as I see it there are two solutions:
I can replace the ignition switch but that may have issues with the key being coded to the car, which sounds like a bit of a nightmare. Unless I can replace the switch stack only (not the full barrel), can anyone confirm if this can be done?
OR I could add a starter relay in PSF1 by cutting the wire to pin 1 and using that to drive the starter relay coil and then route 12V from the battery (via a fuse) to the starter relay contacts and from there to pin 1 and on to the solenoid.
Any thoughts on these options anyone? all comments appreciated.

[Multispacer]

I've had a look around to see if I can identify the wiring and check for a starter relay. I got some wiring diagrams from another post which are very close to (although not exactly) what I am seeing at the engine compartment fuse box (PSF1), the driver side fuse panel (BSI1) and the ignition key switch (CA00). Using this as a starter I disconnected the battery and traced the wiring between these components and found that the blue wire on the ignition switch goes to a blue connector resting on top of BSI1 and from there goes directly to Pin 1 of the 16 way black connector in PSF1 via an (orangy) red wire. That connects to a white wire on pin 2 of the 2 way black connector in PSF1 which goes directly to the starter solenoid.
So that means that there is NOT a starter relay on the M59 Berlingo, the solenoid is driven directly from the ignition switch (although this 12V supply shares the MF7 fuse with +CC and +AA on a 2 way black connector in BSI1). With this info I was able to check the drive voltage on Pin 1 of the 16 way black connector in PSF1 (the orangy red wire) and found that when cranking correctly this voltage is about 12.5V but is only 10.2V ish when not cranking. This means that its a problem with the ignition switch and I double checked this by using a short wire to 'jump' 12V from the battery to pin 1 (the orangy red wire) when in the no crank condition and the engine started immediately.
So as I see it there are two solutions:
I can replace the ignition switch but that may have issues with the key being coded to the car, which sounds like a bit of a nightmare. Unless I can replace the switch stack only (not the full barrel), can anyone confirm if this can be done?
OR I could add a starter relay in PSF1 by cutting the wire to pin 1 and using that to drive the starter relay coil and then route 12V from the battery (via a fuse) to the starter relay contacts and from there to pin 1 and on to the solenoid.
Any thoughts on these options anyone? all comments appreciated.

Good bit of fault finding there. 

Not sure if this is the thread you've already seen but I remembered a thread from the past about someone having the same problems as you and wanting to add an extra switch in the circuit. Unfortunately the thread doesn't state whether he actually achieved it but there are some additional diagrams on this thread which might be helpful to you? 

https://www.berlingoforum.com/thread-225...ion+switch

I think if you go down the changing the ignition switch you have to change all the door locks and get them items recoded to your vehicle, which is not going to be cheap.

[HenryD]

Yep, those are the diagrams from Sol and pk7478 that I'm using, only mistake is that they reference an 8 way black connector on PSF1 which I think is a 16 way in my fuse box.
I'm gonna do the mod to add a starter relay because I can't see any key switch looms on eBay for the M59 mark2 so I don't think that I can just change the loom. Can get a full switch and loom together (don't look like they can be separated without breaking them) but then would need a set of recoded keys which would be expensive and a chew on. There is a possibility though that I could just bodge it by cutting the transponder chip out of the original key and tape it to the reader ring on the key switch but again, there will be niggles. May have to do it later on if the switch gets worse or breaks altogether.
Anyway have ordered a relay off eBay so I'll post the results here when I get it.

[HenryD]

So.... got the relay, tried the mod and it didn't work so I was a little confused! Tried jumping from the battery + terminal to the solenoid drive wire in the engine fuse box and that didn't work either so removed the mod and reconnected the wire from the ignition switch which seemed to get it working again while I tried to figure it out. Suspected that cutting the ignition wire into the fuse box caused something else to supress solenoid engagement but that doesn't really make sense as jumping direct to the solenoid did nothing. Anyway, the failure mode seemed to have changed so that when ignition switch didn't work the direct jump didn't work either although could hear a definite 'clunk' from the solenoid. This made me think that it wasn't the ignition switch after all but rather the starter motor brushes being worn and when everything is left to cool down they spring unstuck again. The old trick to tap the starter with a hammer to free the brushes would have confirmed this but the starter is an absolute pig to get at on a Berlingo. So I decided to take a punt and get a backstreet mechanic to replace the starter/solenoid with a reconditioned one. This turned out to be the solution because everything has worked perfectly since. Was well worth the 130 quid for parts and labour because I don't have any way to get at the starter to remove it and replace the brushes. A braver soul than me (with access to a car lift or pit could save themselves 120 quid by doing it themselves but I'm very happy with that as a 'normal' garage would have charged me more than the Berlingo is worth.
This is all a bit rambling but I've tried to describe the process so that it might help anybody else in the same pickle. I would suggest that although ignition switch problems can occur, they are rare and makes sense to check the brushes first, probably with the hammer trick it you can get access.
Hope this is helpful to somebody. H.